Why did the west figure out it was more efficient to hit while keeping your unused hand close to your chin while the east had this weird technique, pulling the rear hand as far back as possible at armpit level?
Why did the west figure out it was more efficient to hit while keeping your unused hand close to your chin while the east had this weird technique, pu...
The second allows more rotation and power from the core the first makes sure you don't get hit in the face.
If the west had stayed armored they may have had that thought. Armpit openings make good stab stab. Chambered punch covers it. Muh grolious empile.
Misunderstanding of technique. These moves are supposed to be used at close range. That "unused hand" is pulling the opponent's arm out of the way so they can't block. Pulling it into your armpit is basic arm control that you see in most grappling styles.
Bokator and Muay Boran don't do that
they actually arrived at the same conclusion when things were still bare knuckle and fights weren't restricted by all these rules we have now
what you're seeing with the hands up chin down phenomenon is the result of being able to shell up due to gloves dramatically increasing the profile of the hands
in a bare knuckle situation the correct way is hands lower and further out so you can parry as shelling doesn't work well
ironically the striking sports teach people how to fight wrongly
This.
Also repeated bare knuckle punches against a hard head (with high probablity of hard hitting the forehead) is a quick way to get a broken hand/finger.
Sometimes this board with all the MMA/BJJ homosexuals bum me out. Then I see some posts like this & I get a glimmer of hope. There are still some of us out there who get it.
It's a vestigial movement of some kind. There is only speculation on what the original purpose was (as far as I know, according to my coworker of 50+ who practiced taekwondo when he was young and asked the same question himself and read some books on the history)
As for and
I don't think thats really true. In the UFCThey have a similar glove profile and still keep their hands close to their head when striking unlike your old photo. I can really only speculate but I imagine it's to also protect against kicks to the head or maybe there is an "it depends" sort of answer based on distance, reach, timing, and the particular opponent you are fighting.
Is it fair to assume that photo is of a bareknuckle boxer? If it is then your idea on parrying strikes makes sense to me, but clearly the pros don't like it in a ruleset with a larger variety of attacks, so it must not be the best way
>vestigial movement of some kind.
Total bullshit.
>In the UFCThey have a similar glove profile and still keep their hands close to their head when striking
Have you even watched the prep for a fight? The profile isn't the point, its the protection added by dense as frick padding. Each hand has 2 wraps under the glove. So what if it has the same profile. The point is they can still shell up because the back of the hands & knuckles are protected. Obviously thats a photo of a bareknuckle fighter. Intercepting with the forearm is a much better option bareknuckle. Keep in mind there is WAY more fighting experience before the advent of modern hand protection. Do not casually disregard that. Several hundred years more fight history before the advent of good gloves.
not the guy you're replying to but he's still kind of right. You can still shell up without any padding on your hands because most people who shell up in MMA use their forearms and elbows rather than their hands to do it. That being said its just better to dodge and parry but that's easier said than done.
>It's a vestigial movement of some kind. There is only speculation on what the original purpose was
The frick are you talking about moron? We know exactly why, there are tons of books on it, for every school of karate, and for OG pugilism. Why would you write this patently wrong shit?
>everyone doing karate forgot how to brawl once it became a budo.
32 year old guy who did a little kid's judo 20 years ago. Would your average Kyokushin club teach you stuff like this, how to actually fight barehanded?
Yeah, in general. Most Kyokushin dojos are definitely brawlers, but many dojos do still like to avoid head strikes in sparring. Its almost like the TMAs have some ancient wisdom about how to preserve your health while training.
>inb4: dis y dey pusays n c**t fite
Sorry to jump off topic but I know it's coming & i always think its fricking stupid how most fighters today just train to be head hunters & nothing else. I've seen karatekas who could take you apart like a fricking surgeon. I am talking like rendering an arm or leg useless. So much mobility in fighting today is solely centered around head movement & if the dude you're up against isn't even going for that target, you're fricked.
That's interesting, thanks. I've basically only read posts stating that Kyokushin isn't as good as Muay Thai because it has more rules, the perspective presented ITT is interesting to consider.
It's not as good because it takes away the low kick. I think that's a bigger deficiency in what should be their specialty of kickboxing than the lack of clinch work.
No. Kyokushin is what became kickboxing, so the focus is on kicking from the outside and blitzing in. It's legit and full contact, but it doesn't really have any connection to the school of thought that kata blocks that are more dirty boxing and clinchwork. And they freeze the first time they get hit in the face if they're pure Kyokushin guys.
I thought american kickboxing came from shotokan and other karate styles like that? I know dutch kickboxing came from Oyama's students making their own dojo and combining kyokushin/muay thai and japanese kickboxing.
The only thing that matters is it's karate all the way down
The important thing is that it came from post-budo karate where the clinch was de-emphasized if not eliminated, and where nobody was thinking about chopping legs with roundhouses (or they thought it was cheap and banned it).
K-1 was karate guys.
>Kyokushin is what became kickboxing
In Japan.
American kickboxing descends from shotokan and all the other long pants karate kickboxing that guys like Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace were doing.
MMA guards the head because of the gloves yes, NOT because the gloves make blocking easier but because the hand protection of the gloves make striking the head a viable and effective target.
Without gloves you break the bones in your hand if you strike the skull full force, as was already said
The old school black and white western bare knuckle photos like
were of prize fighters, so broken hands meant an unacceptable loss of income.
If you were actually fighting in self defense, a broken hand means you're unable to defend yourself the days after, and in an agrarian or manual labour society you might not even be able to feed yourself.
>you can’t punch someone in the face bro, fists are basically glass
When will this myth die? Just tell me you’ve never been in an actual fight before instead of writing all this
nobody says you cant hit the face without gloves. but hes absolutely correct that the entire point of gloves is to protect your hand. A fist just isnt as tough as a knee, elbow, or shin. Breaking your hand means that even if you win youre a bit fricked afterwards if it doesnt heal properly since we use hands for everything. Its the equivalent of tearing your knee/ankle ligaments in bjj by playing rubber guard or doing buggy chokes, which is why people dont like to do it if theyre not very flexible. Sure you win the match but at what cost.
>nobody says you cant hit the face without gloves. but hes absolutely correct that the entire point of gloves is to protect your hand
No they don’t, moron. The wrist support from wraps protect your hands. Gloves protect your opponent from getting cut. You gays realize there’s bare knuckle boxing leagues now right? They still punch each other in the head.
>explicitly say that you can hit people in the head without gloves its just risky
>"they still punch each other in the head"
reading comprehension man
>gloves protect your opponent from getting cut and not to protect the hands
lmfao. Substantiate those claims. As a fighter, do you care more about getting cuts in your face or fracturing your hands. Bareknuckle boxing literally have a lower concussion rate because fighters dont punch as hard as they can to protect their own hands.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34380362/
>Out of the 282 individual combatants.... Seventeen (6.0%) fractures occurred, with 8 hand fractures.
>Conclusion: The most frequent injuries in BKF include lacerations and hand fractures. Concussions are relatively uncommon compared to other injuries.
https://fanarch.com/blogs/fan-arch/how-do-bkfc-fighters-not-break-their-hands
>By targeting areas like the groin, liver, solar plexus, ribs, nose, chin, jaw, temple, or side of the neck, fighters can avoid hitting hard surfaces that may cause hand fractures.
They wrap every part of their hand except the knuckles, it's just a gimmick
If they weren't allowed to do that the fights would suck because they could barely punch then
>If they weren't allowed to do that the fights would suck because they could barely punch then
Pre-Queensbury Rules boxing was WAY cooler dude.
?si=dhR3aZKUph8MSQBw
>Just tell me you’ve never been in an actual fight before instead of writing all this
Thats what you just did with this dumbass statement. You're basically admitting 1 and/or 2 things. You're so pathetically fricking weak you're not strong enough for this to be a risk and/or you've never been in a real fight with no hand protection. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean its not a thing. Have you EVER watched pros get their hands wrapped?
>No they don’t, moron. The wrist support from wraps protect your hands. Gloves protect your opponent from getting cut. You gays realize there’s bare knuckle boxing leagues now right? They still punch each other in the head.
The frick are you talking about dipshit? There are literally techniques to cut opponents with gloves. Again have you EVER watched a pro get their hands wrapped? Picrel, look at this shit dude. Or look at this vid of an MMA wrap.
?si=dhR3aZKUph8MSQBw
Even an open palm wrap has the focus on protecting the knuckles and this is under the gloves.
>There are literally techniques to cut opponents with gloves
Not him, but such as? You can cut someone with a grazing shot but that applies to literally anything
Nta but, pushing your punches so you end up grazing the forehead with the wrist strap of the glove. The stitching is really abrasive so a few passes with that & you can open up someone's eyebrow pretty easily. Even easier if they're mma gloves, you just push the punch, turn your hand, and really mash the thumb nail into them.
So its exactly what I said
No, you vaguely said you could do it with any grazing shot, that's not true. Push the punch & mashing your thumb nail into someone isn't a "graze" & neither is the gloved approach. It's not a graze if you're forcefully pushing into it. And unless you got some fricked up scaly skin condition I don't see you cutting a brow with a graze. This ain't anime.
So it is or isn't a graze?
>Do Kyokushin from 15-18yo
>get to brown belt
>we spar bare-knuckle half the time
>leave for collage
>come back 5 years later
>they spar exclusively with gloves and headgear now
Karatebros...
sparring at full strength is kinda dumb anyway
you should be able to get close to full speed without putting power into it
it was kind of jarring actually because we always sparred bare knuckle, no off limit targets including the groin, The rule was just don't smash the other guy
then I go to sparring with kickboxers and I touch them up just fine but they act like it's not happening and start really hitting me
it feels like those kids that don't call their hits in paintball or something
>wear pads for protection
>hit as hard as you can try and do damage
>kickboxer logic
>hit hard so you can practice hitting hard
>wear pads so you don't get seriously injured
There's a logical consistency there. Not acknowledging a clean hit because they deliberately pulled their punch is a bit of a dick move though.
>hit hard so you can practice hitting hard
Cept that is not what sparring is for & wearing protective equipment is not to enable that, its for noobs who have no control yet. Sparring is mobility/accuracy practice & anyone who says otherwise has been trained wrong.
there was a femoid that was a pro in bellator, she really sucked and I have an ax to grind when it comes to female accolades not being deserved, but that's a topic for a different discussion
it's 10am on a sunday, it's the first sparring round and she's my partner. So everything is all loose and relaxed just getting moving, lob out a kick, she catches it and throws it back, toss out another one, she grabs it again and tries to trip me "you need to bring your leg back faster"
oh so you're one of those
and as the round is going she keeps going faster and faster and is really ripping at me and it has no effect because shes a woman of course, but she's escalating it to the point where if I match her level she's going to get knocked into next week
Next time just do the same thing for a bit and suddenly throw a head kick. Tell her that's for last time
It would make more sense to do it the day of, but its already too late for that
>inb4 you get kicked out for it
Man's gotta do what a man's gotta do
Depends what kind of kickboxers. Dutch kickboxers always go hard. Muay thai fighters spar light (or are supposed to). But I've run into the same problem as you as someone who trained muay thai and kickboxing. The people who don't acknowledge strikes that could have KOd them are generally newbies
I've said this in other threads but Thais have a completely different standard as to what constitutes "light sparring" compared to what you're going to find a ufc gym in the west or where ever you train.
Also they have real fights in the ring much more often than we have in the west. There is not that much need to get your brain rattled outside the ring when that is the case
& thats why most thai fighters die as penniless nothings with severe osteoporosis in their legs & arthritis in their arms. Seriously it's a fricking trope. Every thai gym has a handful of hobbled over yoda looking mother frickings who can't walk without canes & some of them are barely pushing 50y/o
>earthling logic
You're not waiting for the heat to dissipate from the food, you're waiting for the heat distribution within the food to equalize. By using a lower power setting on the microwave oven you can automate the waiting to happen in between shorter bouts of heating but it's still the same concept.
>kickboxer logic
Kickboxers are going to train hard sparring regardless of whether or not they have protective pads. However, the pads mitigate some of the negative sides of this training and allow kickboxers to spar hard more often.
There are different types of sparring with different objectives. Slow/light sparring to explore techniques is highly valuable but it's different from sparring at speed to pressure test techniques.
Because it's for dirty boxing and stripping grips at close range, but everyone doing karate forgot how to brawl once it became a budo.
why do you characterize karate as the entirety of eastern striking arts as if muay thai doesnt exist.
As it turns out. Arts, whether from east or west or north or south, look similar if they have similar rules and context and customs. Which is why shuai jiao, judo, mongolian wrestling, turkish wrestling, greco roman, and literally every regional grappling art looks so similar.
Karate was developed within a specific context, and i assume it worked extremely well within that context and when trained how the good practitioners actually trained.
Thai martial arts pre exposure to western boxing also tended do the hand at the side thing. Go watch muay boran forms on u tube.
I'm no expert, but in my experience with how karate was taught decades ago, this is because karate is mostly made up bullshit. It's just not a very effective martial art. That isn't to say that there aren't some moves or combos that are useful, but I sure wouldn't bet my life on a pose I learned in Shaolin Karate Kungfu.
>this is because karate is mostly made up bullshit
Thanks for letting us know that you're a fricking moron & don't know shit. Tons of pros have trained karate. GSP got his start there and used it all the way. So sick of you homosexuals acting like you know better than the several hundred years of experience that has gone into karate or shaolin for that matter.
They always get their asses kicked by the thais
If thais were any good at fighting they'd be fighting for promotions where even a modest $10k USD payout for one fight is an annual salary in their country
Even the worst of the worst amateurs can get $500-$2000 per fight on the region circuits, so they must not be that good
>The superior scientific white European man would never do something so barbaric and backwards like the eastern savages--ACK
What the frick am I looking at lmfao
Those don't look white to me
>A guard that protects the face and torso, Uppercuts, foot sweep, footwork to move forward suddenly, back kick, shin kicks, and a throw
>A Frenchie kata done by one of their most trained soldiers
I don't see the problem here. You know those frickers will beat the shit out of each other in sparring while betting fricking anything on the outcome of the match for fun in their free time?
>inb4 still thinks that will be done in a fight the way in the kata
moron. Actually go to a gym.
>kata, japan
😐
>kata, france
🙂
I actually like both. I'm not the anti-kata anon.
Hapa seething
The only way to counteract Karate's arm-pulling hikite grab and pound fighting is to fight them butt naked and covered in oil.
I wanna you see any of you tough guys pull out your fancy hadouken moves when you have TWO thick, warm, well oiled fingers stuck up your butthole
Influence of gloves -> focus on massed punches to head
Minimal risk of grappling
Ergo need to keep hands up to defend head + no need to keep hands lower to pummel for underhooks in clinch
Makes sense. From what karate I have seen, even the styles that allow & train for head strikes heavily focus on body shots. What I am curiois about though, does the karate under arm position the arms are held in make for a quicker or stronger punch? Or less telegraphed? I think the way punches are thrown in karate lets you have a little acceleration before the angle is determined. So, your arm is already in motion in a more neutral position where you could be going for the head or the body & you wouldn't have ad much time to know where it's going.
This is my uneducated opinion on TMAs, but I think its just because they're pussies and don't like getting hit in the head. That being said, a lot of people act like getting hit to the body is so much worse than it is. I would rather get hit 10x to the body than once to the head
>liver punch
>plexus
>kidneys
You're a moron & modern striking is fricking stupid. Way to much focus on head hunting. The really good strikers like Jones or GSP will pick you apart to make weaknesses in your posture. Most morons just throw bombs at the face & hope for the best.
Except I've taken shots to the liver and kidneys during training and they don't really do anything to me. Once dropped a guy with a kick to the liver and I didn't throw it hard, so I've seen it but I don't understand it since they don't have the same effect on myself. The only solar plexus shots I've ever taken were because I allowed them, IE we were doing a body shot challenge
If you're not actually good at striking just say that
You're just a god of fighting anon. No other way around it. You are a super human being who can only get hit when he allows it and doesn't have any of the weak spots every human being in history has had.
Its okay to admit that you don't have high pain tolerance. Some of the hits I've taken in construction and mountain biking were far more painful than anything from fighting. You can win against a human, you don't win against mother nature
Only reason I haven't dropped more people with liver shots is because I LOVE headhunting.
>Except I've taken shots to the liver and kidneys during training and they don't really do anything to me
I don’t know why people tell such dumb lies and pretend people can’t tell.
>Its okay to admit that you don't have high pain tolerance
Dropping from a liver shot is physiological not psychological you fricking moron. Next you’ll tell me you can’t be concussed because you’re just built different bro.
You're free to go full force with my hands up. See if the liver shots do anything. They won't. Cerrone got wrecked by liver shots because he's an alcoholic. He has a weak liver. I barely drink
>Dropping from a liver shot is physiological not psychological you fricking moron. Next you’ll tell me you can’t be concussed because you’re just built different bro.
And? What's the difference? I feel slightly more pain getting hit there, its just not enough to stop me. That's pain tolerance. You don't have grit, I do
Also yes, I might get a concussion but you will never knock me out. I'll die before I get KOd
>You don't have grit, I do
>Also yes, I might get a concussion but you will never knock me out. I'll die before I get KOd
Frick, can this board get any more cringe? Do need to resort to Fhite level bullshit?
>post body with time stamp
>protip
>you wont cause you're a larper homosexual
Don't train, don't fight, this level of larp is indication of immensely pathetic likely suicidal homosexuals.
>Don't train, don't fight
You mean you?
>Do need to resort to Fhite level bullshit?
Says the guy who wants me to post body. What would posting body prove? Fhiteness has nothing to do with mental toughness or pain tolerance. But you would know this if you actually trained
No, never seen red in my life. I get cold and calculated when fighting
>confidently being this huge of a homosexual
>implying fat cheetoh encrusted fingers did not type this
Fhite just keeps setting new standards for cringe larp. Sure thing bud, you just a stone-cold killer. Lol.
This is fricking pathetic
>I'll die before I get KOd
Lmfao, do you just see red too?
>Next you’ll tell me you can’t be concussed because you’re just built different bro.
I can't get concussed by women unless they are jump stomping me.
Oriental martial arts where more art than stuff to actually use. Western martial arts were tested in constant centuries long wars and underground fights.
Elitism kills a lot of creativity
Do white anons really think Asia wasn't constantly at war for centuries either?
Yes. China effectively giving itself the Library of Alexandria treatment in the revolution didn't help.
>China effectively giving itself the Library of Alexandria treatment in the revolution didn't help.
By my understanding this is why a lot of modern wushu is garbage. After initially promoting Chinese martial arts as something desirable and virtuous the Party killed off or otherwise removed practical martial arts instructors during the Cultural Revolution leading to theatre-based wushu and taichi-for-exercise-not-fighting becoming dominant.
I simply don't believe the theory that all the real martial arts were replaced. Most CMA were simply never tested to any real extent other trained fighters. Instead you got these guys that trained for 10+ years and then went around beating up peasants and thinking that their Wing Wong style was the supreme pinnacle of technique
>Most CMA were simply never tested to any real extent other trained fighters
Why do you think that? Competitive interdisciplinary martial arts traditions like Lei Tai aside, they had cold weapon militias from antiquity into WWII and a solid history of war and civil strife. Triads and tongs fought each other with cold weapons well into the 20th century, resulting in Fairbairn's many scars and opinions on fighting. The primary and pressure-tested focus of Chinese martial arts for many, many centuries was killing other Chinese martial artists.
If kung-fu was pressure tested you would have 5 styles instead of 500. There is nothing to support your cope theory and your post is bs.
Actually kung fu was always garbage. Look up boxer's rebellion and literally nothing is different about the bullshido operation then and today
>Look up boxer's rebellion
Perhaps you should. They were initially militarily successful but lost politically and failed to rally the expected support. It doesn't matter how good of a fighter you are if the bulk of your nation throws you to the international wolves.
Thats one thing but no amount of training will make you bullet or cannonball proof
Correct, but by that logic all martial arts were always garbage. The Boxers were competent fighters who weren't given the modern firepower they needed to win the war.
No, they fricking believed they could be bulletproof from kung fu and got wasted for it. That's the problem. Chinese martial arts were always mythical bullshit
>has no fricking clue what the boxer rebellion was
Dude... Just shut the frick up. Jesus, shit this stupid is gonna give me a stroke someday.
no you're going to get a stroke because you can't handle other opinions on the internet without throwing yourself into a fit trying to shit over other martial arts that aren't yours, I can easily tell which posts are yours, get a fricking grip
The real reason is that Western martial arts were primarily about sport and prizefighting for money whereas Eastern martial arts were taught via forms
The result is that Westerners got a lot better idea through practice of what works and what didn't. That's why grappling is mostly similar the world over because people would actually wrestle, whereas striking evolved in different ways because people wouldn't spar as much (and rulesets could vary massively).
Lots of points already made in this thread but one thing you need to keep in mind is boxing is a combat sport while karate is a self defense. Boxing is designed to fight against other trained fighters while karate didnt need to worry about something like that. If you watch competitive karate it starts to look more like other combat sports
The second one assumes you are welding a wakizashi or tanto. Except it was more convenient to train without.
No.
Dude, nta, but like, MMA is boring as frick. I just want someone who's at least willing to try making it look cooler. Also, you're dumb & like, a gay. BJJ is for queers, you would like it.
Why do you speak like you're a flaming homosexual or something?